Romantic relationships are sacred, powerful, and life-giving. But I don’t have to tell you how difficult it is to love and let yourself be loved. Marriage and family therapist Dr. Terry Hargrave has been helping couples in crisis restore broken relationships for decades, teaching them how to get unstuck, improve communication, and move beyond destructive coping mechanisms—to find reciprocity, self-affirming confidence, emotional regulation, and a joyful, lasting love. In a world marked by loneliness, disconnection, and emotional dysregulation, Hargrave offers powerful insights on the human need for identity, safety, and belonging—and how we can heal the wounds that keep us stuck. Drawing on decades of therapeutic experience and deep personal reflection, Hargrave explains how coping mechanisms like blame, shame, control, and escape can damage relationships—and how the peace cycle of nurture, self-valuing, balanced give-and-take, and connection can restore wholeness. He discusses his unique approach to the healing and restorative power of relationships, which lifts us up to our potential, encouraging us toward a nurturing, self-valuing, non-controlling reciprocity, and true connection. In this conversation with Terry Hargrave, we discuss: - How to turn around a relationship in crisis and get off the emotional rollercoaster - How to build security and trust in order to improve or repair a marriage or long-term relationship - Coping mechanisms of blame, shame, control, and escape - Practical steps to learn emotional self-regulation - What to do when only one partner is working on a relationship - The role of the brain and neuroplasticity in relational repair - And the spiritual underpinnings of Terry’s approach to restoration therapy **Episode Highlights** "It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that swing—until you claim your belovedness for yourself, nothing will change." - "Relationships are a mirror—we discover who we are through how others see us." - "Blame, shame, control, and escape—nothing good comes from these coping mechanisms." - "Understanding doesn’t produce change. Doing produces change." - "When we nurture, self-value, connect, and cooperate, unleashed joy happens." - "Thriving is doing more of your best self, not learning something new." **Helpful Links and Resources** - [Restoration Therapy Training Resources](https://www.restorationtherapytraining.com/) - [*The Mindful Marriage* by Ron Deal and Nan Deal (with Terry and Sharon Hargrave)](https://www.amazon.com/Mindful-Marriage-Helping-Transform-Relationship/dp/0764241134) - [*Five Days to a New Self* by Terry Hargrave](https://www.amazon.com/Five-Days-New-Self-Relationships/dp/162564526X) - [Emotionally Focused Therapy and Sue Johnson's Legacy](https://iceeft.com/about-us/) **Show Notes** - Introduction to Terry Hargrave and the importance of Restoration Therapy today - "We are still the same humans, but with a bigger pipe of problems and fewer emotional connections." - Emotional dysregulation linked to identity and safety threats - Relationships as a mirror to the self and necessary for human thriving - "For there to be a me, there has to be a thou." - Why relationships are difficult: imperfection, wounding, and unmet needs - How family of origin wounds influence coping styles - "Families don't mean to screw each other up, but somehow they manage to." - Introduction of the four major unhealthy coping mechanisms: blame, shame, control, and escape - How overachievement, perfectionism, and withdrawal are survival strategies from early wounding - "Your greatest strength might actually be an old coping habit getting in the way of intimacy." - The relational signs that coping mechanisms are damaging relationships - Healing through self-regulation: speaking truth to yourself with love - "Put your hand on your heart and remind yourself of who you really are." - The difference between co-regulation and self-regulation in emotional healing - Restoration Therapy’s peace cycle: nurture, self-value, balance, connection - "Nothing good comes from blame, shame, control, or escape." - The role of practice and neuroplasticity in forming new relational habits - "Doing, not just understanding, is what rewires the brain." - How thriving relationships move from neediness to adventurous partnership - Intimacy as knowing yourself more fully through connection, not just need satisfaction - Cooperative growth and mutual flourishing as hallmarks of thriving - Application of restoration principles to broader societal healing and reconciliation - "Unleashed joy happens when we choose nurture and connection, even with adversaries." - The critical role of faith in affirming belovedness and ultimate identity - "Everyone else and even God can tell you you're beloved—but you have to claim it for yourself." - Practical advice for knowing when to seek therapy - Where to find Restoration Therapy-trained therapists - Resources for learning more: Mindful Marriage and other Restoration Therapy books - The key takeaways that I will carry with me from this conversation are the following: - You can change. Your relationship can change. But it takes a daily practice of hard work to create lasting change. - And though you might fail, there is hope that you can begin again. - Our coping mechanisms are not superpowers. They hurt us and the people we love. - Understanding is not enough. Action and behavior has to follow for change to occur. - [Any others?] It takes two to tango, but that doesn’t get you off the hook from doing the work on yourself. - And finally, a thriving relationship creates joy all around it, within a family, in a community, and it shows how personal relationships can change society. **About Terry Hargrave** Dr. Terry Hargrave. Until he retired recently, he was the Evelyn and Frank Freed Professor of Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary, and a nationally recognized therapist known for his pioneering work with intergenerational families. He’s most well known as the founder of Restoration Therapy, which combines advantages of Attachment Theory, Emotional Regulation, and Mindfulness—all in an efficient and organized format that allows both the therapist and client to understand old habits and destructive patterns of behavior and promote change in both individual mental and spiritual health, in order to transform our most intimate relationships. Terry has authored or co-authored over 35 professional articles and fifteen books including *Restoration Therapy: Understanding and Guiding Healing in Marriage and Family Therapy* and *Families and Forgiveness: Healing Wounds in the Intergenerational Family*. In his latest book project, he worked with his wife Sharon, also a licensed marriage and family therapist. It’s called The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself, and it’s a practical manual co-written with Ron and Nan Deal about how they healed their relationship after almost losing it. He’s presented internationally on relationship dynamics, family and marriage restoration, the complexities of intergenerational families, healing and reconciliation, and the process of aging. His work has been featured on A*BC News, 20/20, Good Morning America*, and *CBS This Morning* as well as several national magazines and newspapers. You can learn more about Terry Hargrave and his work—and find books, practical resources, and professional training materials at: restorationtherapytraining.com.
Romantic relationships are sacred, powerful, and life-giving. But I don’t have to tell you how difficult it is to love and let yourself be loved.
Marriage and family therapist Dr. Terry Hargrave has been helping couples in crisis restore broken relationships for decades, teaching them how to get unstuck, improve communication, and move beyond destructive coping mechanisms—to find reciprocity, self-affirming confidence, emotional regulation, and a joyful, lasting love.
In a world marked by loneliness, disconnection, and emotional dysregulation, Hargrave offers powerful insights on the human need for identity, safety, and belonging—and how we can heal the wounds that keep us stuck. Drawing on decades of therapeutic experience and deep personal reflection, Hargrave explains how coping mechanisms like blame, shame, control, and escape can damage relationships—and how the peace cycle of nurture, self-valuing, balanced give-and-take, and connection can restore wholeness. He discusses his unique approach to the healing and restorative power of relationships, which lifts us up to our potential, encouraging us toward a nurturing, self-valuing, non-controlling reciprocity, and true connection.
In this conversation with Terry Hargrave, we discuss:
Episode Highlights
"It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that swing—until you claim your belovedness for yourself, nothing will change."
Helpful Links and Resources
Show Notes
About Terry Hargrave
Dr. Terry Hargrave. Until he retired recently, he was the Evelyn and Frank Freed Professor of Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary, and a nationally recognized therapist known for his pioneering work with intergenerational families.
He’s most well known as the founder of Restoration Therapy, which combines advantages of Attachment Theory, Emotional Regulation, and Mindfulness—all in an efficient and organized format that allows both the therapist and client to understand old habits and destructive patterns of behavior and promote change in both individual mental and spiritual health, in order to transform our most intimate relationships.
Terry has authored or co-authored over 35 professional articles and fifteen books including Restoration Therapy: Understanding and Guiding Healing in Marriage and Family Therapy and Families and Forgiveness: Healing Wounds in the Intergenerational Family.
In his latest book project, he worked with his wife Sharon, also a licensed marriage and family therapist. It’s called The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself, and it’s a practical manual co-written with Ron and Nan Deal about how they healed their relationship after almost losing it.
He’s presented internationally on relationship dynamics, family and marriage restoration, the complexities of intergenerational families, healing and reconciliation, and the process of aging.
His work has been featured on ABC News, 20/20, Good Morning America, and CBS This Morning as well as several national magazines and newspapers.
You can learn more about Terry Hargrave and his work—and find books, practical resources, and professional training materials at: restorationtherapytraining.com.
This transcript was generated automatically. It may contain errors.
Pam King: With and For listeners, we are so grateful for you. I have so appreciated your curiosity and your enthusiasm about the show. If you're enjoying this episode and finding it helpful, or inspiring, I would be so grateful if you would take a moment after listening to share it with a friend.
Alternatively, if you took a moment to rate the show and leave us review on whatever podcast app you're listening to.
That is one of the best ways to grow a podcast is by listeners sharing with the people that they're with and for Romantic relationships are sacred, powerful, and life-giving. But I don't have to tell you how difficult it is to love and to let yourself be loved.
Marriage and family therapist, Dr. Terry Hargrave has been helping couples in crisis restore broken relationships for decades, teaching them how to get unstuck, improve communication, and move beyond destructive coping mechanisms to find connection, reciprocity, self-affirming confidence, emotion regulation, and a truly
joyful lasting love.
Terry Hargrave: A relationship is like a mirror that shows me a picture of myself.
The human condition is not just the flesh and bones of people.
It's also what we create together in our friendships, our marriages, our relationships, our parenting, all those things really bring us together.
even loving safe people can't be absolutely loving and safe all the time. That's why we have this painful part of us that relates to who we are and how we relate.
We have a saying in restoration therapy, blame, shame, control, escape. Nothing works. good comes from these coping mechanisms. they are by nature violating somebody else's identity and somebody else's sense of safety or at the minimum violating my own.
it's time that you step up and take an authoritative position on your own identity, your own sense of safety.
Pam King: I'm Dr. Pam King, and you're listening to With and For a podcast that explores the depths of psychological science and spiritual wisdom to offer practical guidance towards spiritual health, wholeness, and thriving on purpose.
Let's start by acknowledging no podcast episode can save a relationship. But my guest today has studied what makes relationships work for decades. Developing a therapeutic model that has transformed and even saved many relationships.
In this episode I'm honored to have my dear colleague, Dr. Terry Hargrave, who until he retired recently was the Evelyn and Frank Freed Professor of Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary and a nationally recognized therapist known for his, known for his pioneering work with intergenerational families.
He's the founder of Restoration Therapy, which is a marriage and family therapeutic model. It combines advantages of attachment theory, emotion regulation, and mindfulness, all in an efficient and organized format that allows both the therapist and client to understand old habits and destructive patterns of behavior and promote change in both individual mental and spiritual health in order to transform our most intimate relationships.
Terry has authored or co-authored over 35 professional articles and 15 books including Restoration Therapy: Understanding and Guiding Healing in Marriage and Family Therapy, and Families and Forgiveness: Healing Wounds in the Intergenerational Family.
In his latest book project, he worked with his wife Sharon, also a licensed marriage and family therapist. It's called the Mindful Marriage. Create your best relationship through understanding and managing yourself.
It's a practical manual co-written with Ron and Nan Deal about how they healed their relationship after almost losing it.
He is presented internationally on relationship dynamics, family and marriage restoration, the complexities of intergenerational families, healing and reconciliation, and the process of aging. His work has been featured on ABC News, 20/20. Good Morning America, and CBS This Morning, as well as several national magazines and newspapers.
You can learn more about Terry Hargrave and his important work. Find books, practical resources and Professional Training Materials at restorationtherapytraining.com.
In this conversation with Terry Hargrave, we discuss.
How to turn around relationship and crisis and get off the emotional rollercoaster. How to build security and trust in order to improve or repair a marriage or long-term relationship.
The emotional foundations for the most common problems in severely damaged relationships.
Coping mechanisms of blame, shame, control and escape. Practical steps to learn emotion regulation. The role of the brain in neuroplasticity, in relational repair and What to do when only one partner is working on a relationship.
Terry, it is so great to have you on With and For I am a huge fan of yours and Sharon. I have been a direct beneficiary of the legendary Restoration Therapy, and I am so grateful to have you on the show.
Terry Hargrave: Thanks, Pam. you know that I'm a big fan of yours. I love you and I love your family and, uh, so excited to be with you. Thanks for having me.
Pam King: Your work in understanding relationships, and how they enable people to be whole feels more timely than ever, given the loneliness epidemic and all that has Transpired in our country people are feeling more ruptured and separated than before.
And I was curious from your standpoint, do you observe a change in relationship patterns generally or are things as they always are? Are humans being humans?
Terry Hargrave: Yeah, I think that's a great question, Pam. my fundamental belief is that,we're still having the same emotions when, if you look at, people, even if you went back to your great grandparents, roughly 80 years ago and ask them, they have the same emotive quality that goes on with them.
Where people get emotionally dysregulated, which is a real big term in restoration therapy, is they get emotionally dysregulated when my identity is really challenged, when my personhood is really challenged. Or my safety is really challenged. Those are the two human characteristics that, set us apart from everybody else.
And so, my great grandparents were just as emotionally dysregulated as I am. Two things have changed though, probably is that the intensity of that dysregulation around the, sheer volume of what goes on. We're, we live in an information age, so there are many, many more things that we hear about, therefore, that we have concerns about.
that really sets us on the edge. The other thing is that we're cut, probably cut off from primary relationships more often than not. And of the healing factors in the brain. Human conditions are close relationships and when we have fewer and fewer of those or Less Connecting relationships.
It really makes it difficult to stay emotionally on the beam so You know, it's not that it's not that it's so bad, but Problems come at us through a larger pipe, and we have fewer really close emotional connections that I think that's what makes it tougher these days, I
.
Terry Hargrave: you know, as human beings, we need relationships. and I'd love to hear your perspective on why humans need relationships and why that's so important to our wholeness and thriving. Mm.Yeah, without getting too philosophical, The thing about relationships is that they are a mirror to ourselves. The only way that we find out who we are is actually through conversation, interactions, how do people perceive us. And so in that way, a relationship is like a mirror that shows me a picture of myself.
I understand, oh, I, I'm extroverted because this person thinks I'm Fun and funny and outgoing and things of that nature. I only get that in the context of relationship. You know, that's aphilosophical principle for there to be a me, I have to have a thou that's out there. and, I think that's a remarkable sense of becoming.
And then, you know, when you turn that framework on, and you say, Ok, to really know myself, or understand myself, I have to be in the context of relationship, then that puts us in The ability of how to actually give to one another and how to receive from one another and actually have a cooperative relationship, which is a really cool aspect of, how we're built.
We, we often say, in psychology, you know, that little babies come into the world with this. This bonding need, you know, they, they're looking for the attachment of another human being and if they don't get that it really has devastating consequences on their development. we don't say as much but it's just as true.
We also come in with a sort of built in gyroscope. Of relationships that tell us, oh, when it's appropriate to give to the other individual and when it's appropriate to receive from the individual. And that balance of give and take, it's a really exciting concept that we're built to actually interchange with one another and really relate at a deeper level, not just to love with one another, but really to have adventures together in learning how to grow, learning how to be safe with one another, learning how to encourage one another, learning how to cooperate with one another to accomplish big things.
Pam King: That's extraordinary. I love what you're getting at, and I just, have to say how beautiful it was you were saying how essential relationships are to our becoming.
Terry Hargrave: Yeah,
I often talk about my wife and I, Sharon and I, uh,you know, Sharon has her individuality and Terry has his individuality.
And then there's a whole new person called us. That is neither Sharon nor I. It has parts of us, both of us, but, in actuality, it's a whole new human being. And, actually, you know, I don't,I don't have to be married. For instance, there's an us that exists between us. Uh, right now,I like that concept that it, the human condition is not just the flesh and bones of people.
It's also what we create together in our friendships, our marriages, our relationships, our parenting, all those things really bring us together.
Pam King: Relationships aren't incidental to who we are. That means that the capacity to relate in mutuality and reciprocity is built into who we are as human persons, but for something that's so essential to our nature,nature, they sure don't come easily.
Even as our very identities emerge in relationship with our caregivers, we inevitably experience the imperfections, limitations, and brokenness of the people we love and care for. Terry has worked with so many people in struggling relationships, so he's got a very experienced take on what makes relationships so challenging
if relationships are so important to us, so essential to our human nature, our human condition, why are they so difficult or why can they be so difficult?
Terry Hargrave: Well, a couple of reasons is,the primary one is that we're imperfect with one another. in other words, we, We have this wonderful capability to be connecting, nurturing to one another, to be encouraging to one another, to really lift one another up, but that we also have that opportunity to put people down, to criticize one another, uh, to neglect one another, to, actually, intentionally, Make somebody pay for where we hurt or something of that nature.
those things inflict wounds on the person's identity. And that, of course, is we're used to the idea of what makes us feel loved and nurtured and peaceful, if you will. Those things that are, that insult that to us, like a put down or a name calling or a neglecting of the relationship, it damages our identity that says, for instance, it says I'm undesirable or this person really cares for me, they don't care for me.
they're. There are extraordinary things about me. Oh, no. There must be, nothing special or unique about who I am. and those are painful things that we carry around with us. You know,families don't mean to screw each other up. But they somehow manage to do that because we're imperfect, right?
And so you come out of even a well meaning family, you still have these, armor in terms of your identity. Uh, the same is true with safety too. the safety is just as important, as much of a great family that, you can have that puts a roof over your head and feeds you and keeps you clothed.
there's always a chance of trauma, like a tornado hits your house and destroys everything, and all of a sudden you don't know where your next meal's coming from. it just a normal course of life. People die. people get sick. they disappear on you and you,you start going, uh, gee,I'm not as secure.
I'm I can't count on things exactly like I thought they were. So that idea that even loving safe people can't be absolutely loving and safe all the time. That's why we have this painful part of us that relates to who we are and how we relate.
Pam King: thank you for raising those themes of identity and safety and that those are particular places that we can experience wounding that impacts our future relationships. One of the things I've appreciated about restoration is understanding how our patients feel. Getting insight into how past relationships impacts our present relationships, and I'd love to hear you talk about how particularly pain in those areas are wounding and identity and safety, might show up in our current life.
I'm not sure, Pam, that we totally understand all the things of how our past shapes us and how it comes together that way, but,it's certainly an ongoing story. for instance, I came from a family. I was the fourth of four Children. First of all, so I'm the youngest of my family.
Terry Hargrave: My mom and dad were good people. they worked hard. They kind of lifted themselves up by their own bootstraps. I remember at three years old, my mom and dad made this courageous decision that they were going to put each other through college and become public school teachers. And, They did it.
in their mid thirties, they worked each other through school, became teachers, and I can tell you that changed everything for my family. Not only economically, but it gave us opportunities to do things that we were, would never be able to do. So, you'd look at that and think, coming from a family like that, I should really be great, right, in terms of my identity and safety.
But unfortunately, my parents came from abusive, physically abusive families themselves. And they drug that physical abuse right into my family. So by the time I was seven years old, not only was I convinced that my family didn't love me, I didn't believe anybody in the universe cared for me. And so, that deep centered pain, led me to the framework of one, well, if I'm ever going to be recognized, if I'm ever going to be okay, I decided I have to become a super performer.
I have to achieve something so people can recognize me and will care for me or love me or something of that nature. Well, as a seven year old kid, my first move was to,I thought, I'll become the class clown. I'll be funny. well, it took me about two weeks and I realized I'm not very funny.
So II thought to myself, well, I'll become smart. Well, of course I'm not that smart either, but what I became was a hard worker. And, the public schools that I grew up in, hard work can translate to people thinking you're smart.
So, you see how that fed the idea that my identity was based on my performance, therefore I became an over performer, an overachiever. So instead of it really connecting with people, I was interested in doing the next thing. actually that came from my pain.
and some people. give up. Some people are, they turn to drug and alcohol because they're not sure that they're loved or they're wanted. They become addicted to certain activities because they want to forget how painful life is and how difficult it is at times to just get through and, persist through difficult feelings.
So we pick up these nasty habits,in restoration therapy, we'd call it coping. like, my, my MO is that,I would. Shame myself, because I thought,when my parents didn't love me, I didn't think that it was their fault. I thought it was my fault. So I'd shame myself, say there must be something that's unlovable about me.
Then I turned myself into a performer to try to get people to manipulate people to love me more. And of course that, that only can go so far, you know,performers have this nasty habit that they're only as good as their last performance. and, I would get tired of that and so my anger would start to come out and my blame would come out.
And, in many ways I was just as lethal as my abusive parents at times in my anger. So,uh, that's how we end up. I mean, the past really sets the stage for our original coping mechanisms, which really can be quite devastating. blame, shame, control, and escape. Those are the,nasty four that really show up in human behavior on a regular basis.
Pam King: I was very grateful for Terry's vulnerability here and sharing his painful personal history and the way he internalized the. Unloving behavior of his parents into the false belief that he was unlovable. These experiences were so disorganizing and traumatic and just intolerable that he made his parents' trauma about him, which of course was not true.
But this internalized shame developed into relational tactics of very skillful over performance achievement mentality, and attempts at impressing, manipulating, and controlling others. Something many high performing leaders and helpers might identify with. But I think we need to understand the why and how this happens.
The way we cope with traumatic or difficult early childhood experiences shapes the rest of our relationships throughout life. And Terry just mentioned the big, nasty four coping mechanisms. Blame, shame, control, and escape
Well, first of all, thank you for sharing and that is a heavy and hard story that you
Terry Hargrave: Yeah.
Pam King: have journeyed through and you have been such a steward of that pain. To use one of Buechner's quotes, and have really come through that and helped so many people out of the depths of your own pain.
You named those four major ways of coping. and I'm struck that. We have the best of intentions and don't always recognize that when our overachieving habits, our performance habits, actually begin to not be so helpful for us.
And our listeners are growth seekers. they are here because They are with people and for people. And it's hard to realize that some of the things that we actually might think are our strengths, or at least our own habits, get in the way of our relationships. So I was wondering if you might elaborate on those four big copes that are not always so helpful.
Relationally
Terry Hargrave: Yeah, so every, your listeners are really familiar with the idea of fight and flight that's in the brain. I know that we tend to add others, other F words onto that, like fight, flight, and freeze, and fawn, and things of that nature, but let me just keep it to fight and flight right now. You know, we, we know our brainworks in this automatic way that when we're threatened or when we feel stress.
we're going to have fight or flight that comes out to be because we're trying to cope with this situation. We're either going to take it on or we're going to run away from it. Well, that's the kind of stuff that I think that, you find in terms of our identity. we, a fight reaction to that.
YouYou know, the basic question is, why was I not loved? Well. A fight reaction is I wasn't loved because you didn't love me. It's your fault, and that once our brain gets accommodated to that way of reacting, we become very angry, resentful, sarcastic, condemning people. Just because our brain gets used to turning to that coping mechanism.
the flight reaction to that same question, Why was I not loved? Is that, Oh, I must not be lovable. that's where I was, right? there must be something wrong with me. I'm really not a very good human being. Uh,I really don't deserve to be alive. this sense of hopelessness, pessimism, self condemnation, uncons, attitude toward myself.
that's a flight reaction. same. deal has to do with safety, right? The fight reaction is that well, you know, if the world is unsafe, I'll just make sure that it's safe by taking control of everything. I'll only trust myself. I'll be or controlling. I'll be over planning. I'll be over performing.
of course, that also makes me judgmental. it makes me Task oriented instead of relationship oriented. It makes me hypervigilant. that's a fight reaction. The fight reaction to the same issue if it's not safe is that, well, I'm just getting out of here. I'm going to escape the situation.
So we start saying, If things get intense, I disappear, I go away, I go hide,and that particular reactivity is particularly prone to addictions because I numb myself out. So I might drink too much or I might drug too much or I might porn too much, whatever it is that I get into. So these, but the secret is that stuff really, the brain.
because of neuroplasticity, when, once it starts recognizing, oh, that's the way we coped before, that's the way we'll cope again, that's the easiest pathway for us to go. And pretty soon, we talk ourselves into having these habitual habits of relating in such a blaming way or a shaming way or a, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, controlling way or an escaping way.
Pam King: It's amazing how our coping mechanisms can masquerade as superpowers. What starts as an adaptive survival strategy may actually become a destructive relational habit.
But you know, what is the most effective way to uncover the destructive nature of coping mechanisms? It's seeing how they impact both you and your partner in a relationship.
The shadow side of how we need to cope can become evident in how we treat the people close to us or allow ourselves to be treated.
Seeing this now so clearly, what can we do about it? What helps us fully feel and deal with our emotional wounds from the past and prevent them from damaging our relationships
I so appreciate you explaining how these become like relational habits. So something pokes at my sense of safety or my identity, a threat or whatever makes me feel insignificant. And I have habituated my brain these go to patterns, whether I'm avoidant, or I'm blaming, or I'm angry, or I'm going to get busy, or control.
these also can be understood somewhat as our superpowers. Like, we might think, like, oh, this is great. You know, life is chaotic. things aren't predictable. I might be taking that to heart. lens of things aren't controllable, predictable from my childhood into my present and go, so I'm going to control, and I might think that's a strength, and I'm going to bring order, in this relationship or this family.
Terry Hargrave: how do you know when these habits are not helpful? You said the key term there is because they're, the relationships that we're in start going like, oh boy, here we go again. Yeah. for instance,anger, for instance, a blaming reaction has You become a bully and you get a lot of payoff for that day, especially in our day and time we have bullies all over the place that, that tend to say, well, that's a real masculine person, or they will use their anger to stand up for people or something of that nature.
Really, really toxic, but people that are the closest to that blamer are saying, I'm just. I'm just tired of being beat down by you all the time. Controllers are a little stealthy because their over performance produces so much good work, so much excellence, so much good, so many great ideas, right?
And we can get excited about that. But Uh, if you're in a relationship with a controller it doesn't take long to realize I don't have any say so in anything. There's no room for my gifts or talents. There's no really room for you to depend on me. The only sense I get is how I can serve you. And, boy, that really gets tough in the closest relationship.
Same with escape, same with shame. the closest relationships are going like, I'm really tired of being beat down by your coping mechanism.
Pam King: that's really helpful. That, so although these, uh, these habits might show up as strengths from a cultural perspective and might actually be helpful in professional or other settings. When you take the relational lens, especially those closest to us, how are they promoting intimacy or generally we know they're a problem when they're getting in the way of intimacy.
Terry Hargrave: We have a saying in restoration therapy, blame, shame, control, escape. Nothing works. good comes from these coping mechanisms. And when I say that, I mean nothing good because they are by nature violating somebody else's identity and somebody else's sense of safety or at the minimum violating my own.
Pam King: That is really clear and really helpful. Okay. So, those behaviors are not constructive, relationally, and, your and Sharon's work has been so essential, like, just frontline, saving marriages, equipping therapists to save marriages. What is helpful? How do we restore our individual bad habits and our relational bad habits?
Terry Hargrave: Yeah, you know, one of the things that I think that,has evolved in my therapeutic thinking over the years is that, I'm a therapist who likes to understand and pick apart people's past and understand how they became the way they were and things like that. And my assumption has always been, Oh, well, if you understand how you become the way you are, you'll change.
in actuality, we know pretty conclusively that understanding does not produce any change in people. It's the actual doing. That is different. And I, I'm such a big fan of, attachment theory, for instance, particularly the way that, Sue Johnson articulated the idea of attachment and emotionally focused therapy, I really, uh,counted a big loss that, uh, she's gone now.
but the idea of co regulation is that you would tell me a need and I would reassure you, I would be there for you. I would assure you of my care and my nurture to you and that would make you feel safe and you would be okay. And I am a big fan of attachment theory. I think it works lovely, for children and young adolescents.
That's how we learn how to do this thing called self regulation. But after we start entering into our late adolescence,It, loses its effectiveness. Uh, what we had say in restoration therapy, it's time that you step up and take an authoritative position on your own identity, your own sense of safety.
for instance, you know,I'm 68 years old. And I'd been married to my wife, Sharon, 45 years, and. There's no doubt in my mind how we love one another, right? So if I walk into Sharon.after this and I say, Sharon, I'm feeling kind of down and said some stupid things on the podcast and, or something of that nature, Sharon would say, Oh, I'm sorry, you feel that way.
No, you're really competent. You're really good. We normally think of that as the way of emotional regulation. That's actually called co regulation.if I'm feeling down about myself and instead I stand up and say, This is what I know about who I am. And, literally, I put my hand on my heart and I say, This is what I know about who I am.
I, first of all, I'm a precious human being. I have gifts and talents that no one else quite possesses in the ways that I have them. I know that I'm a good lover of people. And I know I'm meticulously meticulouslymeticulously And really working at being fair with people. You see, this is called self regulation.
Instead of moping around for two days about, Oh, I didn't do well on the podcast. I S I say to myself, maybe I didn't do perfectly on the podcast. This is what I know about myself. I will find my way. And that makes me mad enough. I may not do it perfectly, but I'll find my way. I'm man enough.
You see, that is a self regulatory process. That's what we're really talking about, Pam, and restoration therapy is not putting down the idea of attachment. is more of a parenting model of emotional regulation.restoration therapy is more of a partnering model. of self regulation. it's more appropriate for friendships and, particularly marriage relationships.
Pam King: I appreciate, that emphasis on individual responsibility in that I need to self-regulate myself. I can't blame my partner for my being dysregulated. I can't blame my partner or expect them to regulate me. I need to do my part in that process and meet them in that, and that will enable me to.
offer them. But that, I think, is one of the great gifts of restoration, is the lens you give of being able to identify behaviors that are probably connected to earlier pains. And it does not just become, empathy and sympathy, but it's like, okay, this being so, how are you going to self regulate? How are you going to remind yourself of your ultimate identity?
I suppose it's helpful to know you might be prone to Identities that are like, I don't matter. I'm not enough. Nobody cares But to be able to recognize that and say but under that I actually know I am reminded. I am beloved. I am known.
Terry Hargrave: Yeah. And that is more difficult to actually get into the habit of saying, for instance, you know, I know you, so I know,you have three children. if your youngest came to you.and said, I just feel so worthless, I can't do anything right. as her mother, what would you say
Pam King: I think I would actually want to validate that you know what sometimes we feel that way, but sweetie these You are wonderful things I see you doing. I don't love just platitudes in those moments, but love to, from her belovedness, that she's loved by God, and actually point out some strengths that I observe in her that I know she's aware of.
Terry Hargrave: So that's what I would challenge you to do, Pam, is that I would actually say, then, so imagine you when you're feeling down and feeling inadequate, you know, I'd say, Pam, put your hand on your heart.and tell yourself, I am absolutely precious and loved by God.
Pam King: Terry, that was so powerful. I did not see that coming, what you just offered me. and yes, that is, an extraordinary example of caring for myself. I would love if you would do that for our listeners,
Terry Hargrave: Yeah, so, for instance, just think about the last time that you. You got emotionally down on yourself or that you felt really, really threatened uh, maybe you've had some damage in the past or some trauma in your past that is, that keeps on creeping up with you. just imagine yourself taking that parental position with yourself and,taking the opportunity to put your hand on your heart.
And speaking to yourself as you would to a child said, Ah, this is what I know. I understand you've experienced bad things, trauma in your life. But here's what I know. You are resilient. You are strong. And most importantly, you know how to move forward. Thank you. with that resiliency and strength. I believe in your talents.
I believe in your personhood. Now, if you're able to say that to yourself, and that's not just a one time saying it, you have to get comfortable saying these things to yourself.that's that secret of neuroplasticity. Where it starts forming those neural networks in your brain that says, when I start feeling down, this is the place I go.
Instead of going to blaming or shaming myself or over controlling or trying to escape or drink these troubles away or something of that nature. This is where I go. That's the secret of what we're trying to reach into in self regulation. and, that's at the heart of what we talk about, Pam, in restoration therapy.
Pam King: Terry's approach to restoration therapy and the emotional regulation required for a healthy relationship is about a partnership between two individuals.
The magic of relational intimacy he suggests, is about the mirroring or reciprocity. That vulnerable sharing of oneself creates.
I know I learned early on in my marriage that a relationship is like a mirror.
Not only reflecting back your foibles in particularities, but when we offer ourselves vulnerably, that paves the way for reciprocity.
Partnering together will always yield a deeper understanding of ourselves.
and I would say just in my own personal journey, the framework and the lens that restoration therapy offers is so helpful to identify behaviors. So I know, Oh gosh, there I am. That's a cope. And I know that's actually a coping mechanism. Not going to be so helpful relationally and for the long term.
So how do I, in a sense, engage that self talk so that I can remind myself who I am and that I can step forward and offer care and connection and intimacy in my relationships? and, but it is that framework that's so helpful to go, that's not helpful,
Terry Hargrave: Yeah,
it's that and as human beings, we need to realize that we're triggered just like that. in other words, we're off to the races. We feel bad about ourselves or we feel angry at somebody else or we feel like we need to control something or we need to get it a heck out of there. we feel it just like this and it takes practice.
to learn how to parent yourself or how to self regulate. So you have to be patient with yourself of going over this again and again and againand slowing down. Sharon and I particularly have been at this idea of self regulation for, uh, let's see, about 20 years now, we've been actively talking about it and working at it in our relationship.
And,we're still getting emotionally dysregulated at times. All right.
Pam King: No.
Terry Hargrave: yeah, we still do. But You and Sharon. the secret is that, What I find after 20 years is that I don't stay emotionally dysregulated as long. In other words, I usually, when I fight with my wife now, I have these mental conversations that are going off in my mind saying, Now wait a minute, Terry, you know where this is going to end.
in terms of self regulating. So, why don't you just beat the Christmas rush instead of staying dysregulated for two and a half hours? Why don't you just cut to the chase and after two minutes, get yourself back in order. And usually that's the habit that neuroplasticity actually allows us to learn and make a tremendous amount of difference.
so we're not making a case here against personal relationships and co regulation. We're just saying the more powerful play is the idea of how I can, actually regulate myself because here's the magic. instead of. Intimacy a la need meeting, in our relationship. Now it's what we used to call intimacy.
Intimacy in the traditional sense where I share my thoughts, I share my emotions, I share my, motivations. I share my physicality. with another human being. And as a result of that sharing, I actually know myself better. I actually see who I am much more clearly. That is intimacy that is much, much deeper.
That's a partnering type intimacy that you can't get from parenting intimacy.
Pam King: Terry, I imagine you get this question asked a lot. what happens if you're in a relationship where only one person can self-regulate like that?
Terry Hargrave: Yeah, this is a common problem. I mean, the honest expression is that, well, one person regulated. is actually better than nobody being emotionally regulated. So there, there is some benefit to that. So we're still are making progress. but I remember relationships, particularly marital relationships or friendships or close working relationships, These are built on something that we call trustworthiness and justice, right?
And there's, that's how we learn things like reliability. That's where we get safe enough to be able to give to one another. So if you have one partner that is really working on their stuff, no matter if that partner is a boss or a friend or a spouse, and one who is not, one who is shut down,
the actuality is that the clock is ticking, right?
Um,
Pam King: because it's going to take two partners actually giving and taking with one another. For to make the relationship work, whether that's a work relationship or friendship or even a marriage when it shuts down when people get really entitled and say, No, I am who I am and I don't need to change and you have to accept me the way I am.
Terry Hargrave: that's a lack of growth that will be eventually lethal to the relationship. those kind of people that shut down and say, I refuse to grow. I refuse to learn. I refuse to take care of myself emotionally.that's sort of a one way ticket to actually finding yourself out of relationships.I certainly don't expect the people that I'm in relationship with to do it perfectly because I don't do it perfectly. I can tolerate, people being triggered and flying off emotionally at me or withdrawing from me. I can tolerate that as long as we can come back together and start working our stuff again.
Uh, you know, that's the secret. As long as we return and keep working at it, then we're still in business. The moment that human beings stop or stop working on themselves, that's where it gets to be a one way ticket.
Pam King: We are natural growers. Well, let's talk you just said when a couple can come together, what is that process?
Terry Hargrave: What is the restoration? And I know you use the term peace cycle. So I'll say, how does an individual and how do couples then activate a peace cycle rather than the destructive pain cycle? Yeah, the, First of all, I think that,what we most often do with couples is we start them off by really understanding their pain cycle. One of the things that's remarkable about the brain, and you know this well, Pam, is that, Even though we have, these 300 billion possible connections in our brain that are just seemingly unlimited.
The truth is the brain is quite lazy in terms of reactivity it chooses the pathway that it's most familiar with, particularly when we're get triggered or emotionally dysregulated. So what that does is that it makes the pain cycle very predictable. In other words, when I look at myself, for instance, I'm a guy who shames myself.
That's my go to. That's where I go to first. I then try to perform my way out of it, which is a little bit of a control mechanism. And then I get angry. That's my pain. it's because I feel unloved. It's because I feel unwanted. And it feels like I'm not ever going to be enough. if I can narrow it down in my, if I can do it just like that, if I can narrow it down to say, this is where I get emotionally dysregulated in situations where I feel unloved, unwanted, and I feel like I'm not enough.
And I know that my reactivity is to shame myself, to try to perform my way out of it. and then get angry. You see, I've actually made known to myself what I've always really suspected. I mean, most of us know that there's some kind of pattern going on in deep relationships that we keep on repeating, but we never articulate.
But once I articulate it, then I know the trick that my brain is, really accommodating. So, you know, when I'm working with a couple, I,expose that pain cycle and it's very illuminating because it seems to tie together their family of origin work or their trauma. And they go like, yeah, I see where these things came from.
And that's where I emotionally get triggered. And that's what happens during night, probably around 80 to 90 percent of their emotional dysregulation, what they put on that kind of cognitive map. But then to take the opportunity and help them understand how I reparent myself in this peace cycle. is really amazing.
But really where we start with that, Pam, is the best part, right? Is because those two people that are sitting in front of me trying to find out how to do the good stuff all the time, they've done it before. In other words, your best self Has come out before, you're not, you don't walk around emotionally dysregulated all the time.
you have these remarkable moments where you were, sublimely loving and nurturing, insightful. You use your gifts and talents to make something happen that everybody was like, wow, it was just amazing. in other words, everybody has had that best day. And so as a therapist, that's where we start. We start saying, when you're operating at your best, what do you find?
Well, I'm,I'm really encouraging to my children or I'm encouraging to the people around me. I have a knack of calling out where people's gifts and talents are. I actually know how to. put an event together that makes people feel nostalgic or feel connected or feel really wanted. I actually know how to encourage people, in amazing ways.
one of the things I love to think about therapy is actually teach people how to encourage people. for instance, if I were teaching your listeners to be able to encourage, sit down with your best friend or sit down with a coworker or sit down with your spouse or your child and look in them in the eye and say, This is what I see in you.
This is what I see in your heart. You are an amazing leader. You use your skills at being able to administrate, think through things, and then put those things to use to make them happen. You are a tremendous fan. of your friends. You are the one that is always telling them, they hang in there, do better, you can do it.
So that's what I would say, that's what I have a couple do, is I have them look at one another and learn how to actually go through the mechanisms of what it's like to actually call out what is true. in their spouse's heart.and those lead to incredibly nurturing moments. so what we try to do is try to say, we're going to give you some language on how to do or replicate that best day that you've already had at one time or another.
and those things can make a huge amount of difference.
When you call out those things that I am loved, I am wanted and I'm man enough, that then opens the door.
for me to be able to articulate what are automatic winners for me to do in relationships. Well, for me, that's always connecting and that's always nurturing. if I do that first, I'm going to end up in a much better place than whatever I was doing dysregulated was. And that's the essence of what we call the peace cycle.
you're training people to mindfully. move from this pain cycle to a regulated state where they're able to do this peace cycle. And that is a wonderful thing when we can get those relationships. That's really, in, in your language, Pat, Pam, that is really thriving, when you're starting to move people to that relationship.
Pam King: Moving from a pain cycle to a peace cycle really does show us
what thriving can look like in a relationship. But to envision our best selves, our whole or our cured selves, we need the language and habits that help us to actually grow and transform into that better version of ourselves, living up to our highest potential in the context of loving relationships.
And finding an ultimate vision of a thriving relationship that begins to venture out and bring goodness to a family and community, and even society. That's the profound life-changing joy that relationships can create
Well, I'm glad you said that because I ask all my guests what is thriving to you, and I'd love to hear your answer to that.
Terry Hargrave: Yeah, there was an old family therapist uh, his name was Milton Erickson. He is a wonderful family therapist, but he was also a hypnotist. And what he used to encourage people about all the time is he would always, Encourage people toward their potential, saying,
Pam King: where is your best self, where is your cured self, and call out those characteristics in your best or cured self.
Terry Hargrave: That's what I think that thriving is that,we all have that potential. you know, I, for one think that human beings are remarkable. they're good at heart. That doesn't mean they don't do bad things. It just means that they are good. And when you get them into a situation where their best talents come out, they are nurturing, they're self valuing, they're balanced in relationships, and they're connected. Well, if we can get them to do that more, it's not learning something different, it's doing more of their best self. less of their pain cycle, more of their peace cycle.
Okay. That's what thriving is to me, is to being so habituated to doing good that people benefit from relationships and are actually, they can't wait to be around you because they just make you feel better.
Pam King: There's a theme I'm hearing that I just would like to hear you elaborate on a little bit more is that, at some point you said people seek intimacy out of neediness. So we're trying to meet have other people meet our needs and that might feel like closeness, but you've also then alluded to when we're in this peace cycle, when we've habituated goodness, when we've habituated nurturing the other, encouraging the other, that relationships take on this growth, this sense of adventuring together, rather than just kind of recovering.
and I know in attachment theory, when we feel safe, we have that ability to explore and go out. I'd love to hear how, The peace cycle, the restored marriage, the mindful couple is enabled to go forth and adventure and bring goodness to the world.
Terry Hargrave: Yeah, this is where this magic of this us ness that I described before, that, that invisible entity that's between us, is, really becomes powerful. When we start functioning in relationships in such a way where we're, nurturing one another, actually expanding. the identity to say, you need to recognize, more of who you are and how precious you are, in not only to people, but just in the, in, in your existence, your precious human being.
When we start ourselves and calling out in ourselves, the elements of self valuing where we start saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I really recognize that I do have gifts and talents that people, nobody else knows about. I also recognize the good that I've done. that's hard for a shamer to do, but if I get myself into that position of self valuing, I start making progress.
if I get myself out of controlling and performing, Then the opposite of that is not no control. The opposite of being a controlling personality is a cooperative personality. In other words, I start cooperating in a balanced give and take with someone else. And I guarantee you, I might be really talented, but if I'm with Pam King and I cooperate with her.
I will be much better, not twice as good. I'll be four times as good with Pam King because of the nature of relationship, the nature of that cooperative effort. and then finally, if I, instead of escaping my pain, uh, leaving my pain or trying to get out of responsibility, if I connect, if I just hold on to somebody else.
In relationship. Good things are going to happen. That, that is the ultimate of us ness. when I start giving my best self, there is no bad thing in that, this is one of my favorite verses from the Bible. This is the fruit of the spirit. It's love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self control.
And then it has this phrase that says against such, there is no law.
other words, everybody agrees those things are great. Well, that's what I would say when we're nurturing one another in the peace cycle. That's where all the connection comes from. That's where all the good stuff comes from. There's no law against that.
You don't have to worry about boundaries. You don't have to worry about whether I'm doing this correctly. There is just an unleashed joy. in the part of humanness, where you can celebrate the fact that we're human beings that are coming together. That's the remarkable part of what human condition can do and the kind of the in betweenness of relationship. And that can happen with a kid. it can happen between kids. It can happen between friends. It can happen with coworkers. It can happen anywhere. And I, and I'm a little optimistic too. maybe it's that I, maybe I'm crazy, but I actually think it can happen with people where they look at one another and say, we can do better than, hating one another.
We can actually have the best parts of ourself come out. And still come out on the other side, even though we disagree.
Pam King: On the other side of pain is peace. A peace that creates abundance and joy, not just for the couple, but for everyone around them. This is the generative nature of a restored relationship. That's the difference between a relationship that merely survives in one that truly thrives.
I asked Terry to work through the four relational antidotes to blame, shame, control, and escape. Instead of blame, we nurture instead of shame, we value ourselves instead of control, we enter a balanced, give and take. And instead of escape, we connect
Terry, I think you've said it throughout, but the four major responses of pain, are there four matching kind of antidotes of peace
Terry Hargrave: so you'll know you're in your pain cycle of what's coming out of you and your behavior is blame, self condemnation or shame, over controlling or taking massive amounts of I can only depend on myself or escape. You can tell if you're in your peace cycle, because what you'll be doing instead of blame, you'll be nurturing.
Instead of shaming yourself, you'll be self valuing. You'll recognize your own worth and your own value. Instead of controlling, You'll actually being be balanced in your give and take you'll actually realize gee other people Not only have responsibility, but they have some good ideas. Maybe I should do what they say And instead of escape It's connecting four things of nurture self valuing balanced give and take and connection Those are the antidote.
Uh,that's where all the good stuff comes from.
Pam King: Well, I even think at a practical level. I know these become the oxygen of marriages and close relationships, but even as we're interacting with folks, um, where our pain might be provoked because of a volatile culture we're in, to make those your go to, responses to people rather than anger or blaming or shame.
but to look at nurturing and connecting, with people. And feeling more balanced is some little thing we can each do in this very wild world that we're walking through together, hopefully.
I
Terry Hargrave: We have this habit in our society of emulating. Athletic heroes that were after they accomplished something great, like a gold medalist run or a high jump, something like that, or a baseball player, you know, thathits the home runs and has a particular dance or a particular way, you know, that they do their celebration.
We tend to The celebrations instead of what actually has to happen to make those things happen, which is the everyday grind of working, repeating, working again, repeating, working again and repeating. So I just want to encourage people saying it's not as simple as going, Oh, well.
You know, I'm a blaming person, so I'll just be nurturing. doesn't work that way. It takes that grinding out, that daily practice of reminding yourself of actually going through the motions of becoming nurturing to actually practice that into the brain. That's why doing actually produces change.
Just understanding won't do it. You have to actually do it.
Pam King: I so appreciate that. The doing, yes, involves our thoughts, being able to identify, think about it, but we,we have to train ourselves to attune to the habit, the feelings, the feelings of anger, the feelings of shame, and you, throughout this interview have, Rattled off like oh, I feel terrible.
I'm not enough and I know those feelings and if we're all honest We have those dark moments of self doubt of feeling self hatred And they're so painful, but that is So part of this work is attuning to those deep, painful feelings, but then retraining yourself, rather than to go to anger or whatever, but to do the work of slowing down to move towards the more positive actions.
And I appreciate the 10, 000 hours that needs to go into this. You've had a lifelong experience of ingraining the more negative habits, it's going to take some real intention, and people around you to support you in that, to pursue the new habit.
Terry Hargrave: yeah, exactly, and that's the hopeful part, is that human beings are absolutely capable of changing, it's not that change is easy, we're absolutely able psychologically we're absolutely capable of learning how to hit a home run with ourselves.
Pam King: That's awesome. Well, I am so grateful, for your taking the time. I am grateful for the impact of restoration therapy and of being exposed to these ideas in this framework,
you are a wonderful teacher and communicator, and I appreciate how you share yourself as well, Terry.
Terry Hargrave: Thank you, Pam. you're a dear colleague to me and a good friend, so thank you so much for, letting me share and, letting me be a part of the podcast.
Pam King: We're so grateful. Thank you so much.
Pam King: Terry's approach to the healing and restorative power of relationships lifts us up to our potential, encouraging us toward a nurturing self, valuing non-controlling reciprocity, and a true connection with others.
The key takeaways I will carry with me from this conversation are the following.
You can change. Your relationship can change, but it takes a daily practice of hard work to create lasting change.
And though you might fail, there is hope. You can begin again.
Our coping mechanisms are not always superpowers. They can hurt us and the people we love.
Understanding is not enough action and behavior has to follow for change to occur.
And finally, a thriving relationship is contagious. It creates joy all around it within a family in a community, and it shows how personal relationships can change society
With and For is a production of the Thrive Center at Fuller Theological Seminary. For more information, visit our website, thethrivecenter.org, where you'll find all sorts of resources to support your pursuit of wholeness and a life of thriving on purpose. I am so grateful to the staff and fellows of the Thrive Center and our With and For podcast team.
Jill Westbrook is our senior director and producer Lauren Kim is our operations manager. Wren Jeurgensen is our social media graphic designer. Evan Rosa is our consulting producer. And special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology and Marriage and Family Therapy.
I'm your host, Dr. Pam King. Thank you for listening.