Discover how life's frustrations can actually become opportunities for growth. Dr. Tina Bryson shares how play expands our "window of tolerance," allowing us to work through challenges with more ease and resilience. Psychotherapist and author Dr. Tina Bryson invites us to open-hearted and empathic perspective taking, and seeking an integrated wholeness that incorporates all of who we are—highlighting the gift of play in our most intimate relationships and family life. In this conversation with Tina Bryson, we discuss: - The importance of play for all ages, especially as a counterbalance to stress, and its role in expanding our window of tolerance. - The difference between free unstructured play and dyadic, relational play, with a focus on child-led play for fostering connection and brain integration in children. - How play helps individuals, particularly children, process emotions and develop emotional flexibility by safely trying on different experiences and feelings. - Practical ways to incorporate playfulness into daily life and relationships, emphasizing that even small moments of shared delight can build significant connections. - And insights into Tina's new book, "The Way of Play," which provides seven strategies for parents to engage in child-led play to help integrate children's brains and strengthen family relationships.
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Jill Westbrook: With & For listeners, if my voice is unfamiliar to you, I'm Jill Westbrook, producer of With & For. When Pam King sat down to interview Tina Bryson earlier this season, they discussed Tina's new book, The Way of Play. We didn't include that part of their discussion in our interview that we aired earlier this season.
Instead, we created this separate episode around the topic of play. Since we'll be airing this episode during the summer, I hope it will motivate you to take some time to slow it down and have some fun. The truth is we all need play, no matter what our age, and we all need a sense of playfulness in our lives.
For many adults, play doesn't feel very natural, especially with our kids, or it might seem frivolous or unnecessary in adult life. Research shows that play is not only crucial for human development, but as adults, the more stress we have in our lives, the more we need play to counterbalance it. If you have young kids or grandkids, playing with them provides benefits for both of you, and playing together strengthens your relationship.
Tina Bryson: And I think one of the reasons that play is so important is because it keeps us in receptive, thriving states. When we laugh, when we are sitting in delight, it expands–It not only keeps us in our window of tolerance, but it expands our window of tolerance. And that's one of the things with kids is like we see if they're playing. With a sibling or something and the sibling wants to play a different way.
And it's really frustrating for the kid but if it's fun enough, they'll sit through the frustration, they'll work through it. And that's true for us as adults too, is that if something's fun, it really expands our capacity and our window of tolerance.
Pam King: I'm Dr. Pam King, and you're listening to With & For, a podcast that explores the depths of psychological science and spiritual wisdom to offer practical guidance toward spiritual health, wholeness, and thriving on purpose.
My longtime friend and neighbor, Dr. Tina Bryson, is an expert in applying interpersonal neurobiology and neuropsychology to maybe the most central part of human life, our closest, most intimate relationships, a bestselling author and at times with Dan Siegel of the “Whole Brain Child” and “No Drama Discipline.”
She has written several other books on parenting and the brain. Her latest book on the science of play came out in January, 2025. Tina is a psychotherapist and the founder and executive director of the Center for Connection. She speaks and Advocates widely, has appeared across media outlets like Time Magazine, Good Morning America, Huffington Post, Red Book, the New York Times, and the Wall Street Journal.
For more resources from Tina, including her books and science packed relationship tips, visit www.thecenterforconnection.org and tinabryson.com.
Pam King: So speaking of fun, I have witnessed you and Dan have fun together. There is a playfulness around you and at this stage in your career, you have been doing a lot on play and I'd love to hear about your book coming out.
Tina Bryson: Thank you so much. Well, about nine years ago, I started the Center for Connection, which is an interdisciplinary clinical practice across the lifespan. So it's obviously mental health, but it's also assessment, occupational therapy, speech and language, educational therapy, and I was at a West Elm one day with my best friend, just after a workout. I was sweaty and whatever, and a woman in a stroller came up to me and she said, are you Tina Bryson? And I said, yes.
And she said, I'm a play therapist and I love your books. And, we got to talking and we hit it off. And she said, I wanna come work with you. And I was like, great. Come work with me at the Center for Connection. And her name is Georgie Wisen-Vincent. And she is an incredible play therapist who also trains other people to be play therapists from our neuro interpersonal neurobiology lens and a neurodevelopmental lens that's very child led.
So, anyway, she trains all of our team and all of this. And so, and as a clinician myself who's had some play therapy training and who finds tremendous capacity for kids to increase as they play their stories, but also how much power is in the relationship building between a parent child when parents learn how to play.
So we were talking about how play is the language of children. It's one of the most important things our kids can do, um, for their development, their language development, their emotional agility, their resilience in terms of how they tolerate everything. Uh, play is such a crucial building block. Even mammals. Mammals and reptiles even do it. Unfortunate that I know this. But yeah, work showed that even if you remove the cortex of a rat, they will continue to play.
Pam King: Wow, wow.
Tina Bryson: So it's a very primary- deep in the brain need. And we also know that play is just a huge protective factor. It allows people to process their experiences, but also build skills for the future. So Georgie and I decided to write a book called, The Way of Play, and we wrote it because in our clinical work and in our everyday lives, talking to our neighbors and friends so much of the time, well, I'll say this, free unstructured play where kids are doing their own thing is crucial. Kids need much, much, much more of it instead of screens, et cetera. But that's also just to make that clear.
Pam King: Okay. Like not screens. Screens is not the play you're talking about?
Tina Bryson: No. Okay. Kids are on screens too much, and so they need more free unstructured play, and that's awesome. And there are great books about that, but that's not what this book is about.
This book is called The Way of Play, and it's in response to so many parents. High functioning, highly educated, wonderful people who are like, I don't know how to play. I don't know what, so I get on the floor, what do I do? Or I try to play with my kid and my kids - You're not doing it right, and my kid doesn't like playing with me, or I find it excruciatingly boring. I hate playing with my kids. So what this book is, is seven strategies, or ways of play that are child led that that really teach us how to play with our kids in ways that help integrate and build their brains and help build and integrate relationships. Naming a narrative and how to amplify the story and play is one of our seven strategies.
So I'm glad you talked about that too. But the book is just a practical way for how do we play with our kids in ways that help integrate their brains to allow them to thrive. And I'm super excited about the book.
Pam King: So play the book is written for parents of children of what ages?
Tina Bryson: Basically, like zero to 12.
Pam King: Okay. So it is younger childhood play.
Tina Bryson: It is younger children, but I will say we all need play in our lives. So I'm in my fifties and, for sure, like our college students who are under tremendous stress.
The more stress you have, the more play you need. So think about as adults, we need a lot of play. What does that look like for us? It's probably not putting on a cape and zooming cars around or like my boys wanted me to bang action figures into each other, which I thought was so boring. But what does it look like?
It often means time with friends. Play is really about doing something for the enjoyment of it, for no other reason, but for the enjoyment.
Pam King: Not being productive.
Tina Bryson: And so, for you that might be playing pickleball and then you just get the bonus of exercise. It might be for some people running like, Pam, I know you're a big runner.
For me it's like, decorating a room, like I love decorating and playing with, I'm a huge like thrifter. Like I love finding the treasures and then integrating it into my thing. It might be even for adults, it might be watching just a trashy TV show or something like that where you're really just enjoying it.
Eating popcorn or eating something you nor don't normally let yourself. That can be play, but the other thing I will say is it doesn't have to just be what we do, being playful. and our manner is huge. And the reason it's so, that's just bringing a silliness, a lightness. One of the ways we can play with our older kids is to be like, I'm gonna, I have this, I wanna show you like a hilarious video.
I want you to show me your favorite funny video. And you might, that might be just a few minutes. It is screen-based, but there are lots of ways to, that's a great way to just laugh together and to be together. But if we're just playful in our manner, and, uh, that can be huge. And I think one of the reasons that play is so important is because it keeps us in receptive, thriving states. When we laugh, when we are sitting in delight, it expands–It not only keeps us in our window of tolerance, but it expands our window of tolerance. And that's one of the things with kids is like we see if they're playing. With a sibling or something and the sibling wants to play a different way, and it's really frustrating for the kid because if it's fun enough, they'll sit through the frustration, they'll work through it. And that's true for us as adults too, is that if something's fun, uh, it really expands our capacity and our window of tolerance. And again, just thinking about like our level of playfulness and enjoyment and delight. It should be proportional to the amount of stress we have.
Pam King: I appreciate so much of what you're saying. I think so often parenting sounds so serious, and as your kids get older, I mean when their kids are super young, you're so tired because they may not be sleeping through the night. As they get older, the risks get a little more dangerous and there might be more anxiety or you're staying up later with them and bringing play - if you're too tired to play. That could be a good red flag of if I'm not able to be playful, if I'm not able to play as a parent, what's going on in my life that I can't find that sense of play. And I definitely have seen, as my kids have raised, I mean raised as my children have gotten older.
Tina Bryson: They raised you too.
They, they are, they still are for sure, but being really intentional about finding new ways to play with them is one breakthrough. My middle son loves to cook. It's this creative act. One of the things that I noticed in your descriptions is how many senses are involved in delight, tasting popcorn, listening to music, the beauty of arts, or the funkiness of an object.
And I think for parents, that's one way to think is like, how can we be amused through our senses? And even how can we engage with our kids through different senses, whether it's audible or some of our kids are more visual or photography or having a shared hobby or playing sports or there was a lot of Thomas the Trains in one stage of my life.
Tina Bryson: Yes. And you know what? You're probably not missing it.
Pam King: That one I'm not missing. Yeah, it's the coloring, the crayons. I do miss a little bit. But yes,
Tina Bryson: I would encourage you to have some coloring, um, books and really nice pens or pencils that you can still play with those. I'll give you permission to play with those.
Pam King: Thank you. Might have a stash here or there. I just need to get them out. Yeah, totally. Um, yeah.
Tina Bryson: I'm just gonna, but yeah, following what lights them up- some of the things that I really love to do that are fun and playful for me, my boys don't like at all, and vice versa.
So where do we overlap? And one of the great ways - to just family chats can be great places, great playgrounds. My eldest works a full-time job and he sent something from work the other day, like something funny that happened on our group chat, family chat. And just to share that with each other.
That's play. That's playful. But yeah, the cooking and anything sensory is great like that. Even just sharing music, like show who are you liking? Send me the new artist you're liking, I wanna listen. Or those kinds of things. So mutual delight is part of play.
Pam King: Yes. That's really great.
Tina, what are the different types of play?
Tina Bryson: Yeah, there are all kinds of different types of play. First of all, the main thing that we can distribute between is free unstructured play, where it's not interactive between you and the child. When the child is not playing with others.
They're just free, unstructured, wandering around, experimenting with things, really play. Now tossing food off the highchair. It can be thought of as sort of play and experimenting with gravity and other kinds of things. So free unstructured play is where it's the child is completely like free to explore and do what they want.
Then of course there's dyadic, relational play, which is two or more people playing, and then that can be directive play. Where I'm really kind of trying to work through something specific with a kid where I'm maybe providing a prompt or I'm providing an item. Like let's say I know that the kid is getting ready to go see their doctor and they have a little bit of medical anxiety, so I might make sure that the doctor kit is out, and I might be like, my teddy bear has to go to the doctor.
Right? So I'd be kind of directing the play and waiting for the child to join in. And then the other is more child-led play. Which is where I trust the child to move toward what they are, what they're being pulled toward, or what interests them, and that I would follow the child's lead and not be directing it, trusting that the child is exploring what they want to explore.
And obviously there's places for both. This book is much more about child-led play and really inviting us. Our brains are different from our children's brains. We have sometimes forgotten how to play and they're sort of like little scientists that, um, aren't thinking about the time or aren't thinking about the parameters of logic and things like that.
And if we can really let go and join with them, it can be kind of amazing. So, I think those are kind of the main ways to think about that. Then there's like expressive play and then there's dramatic play. There's all kinds of different ways that kids do it, but what's super important, and I guess I should say, for adults, I don't know that this is in the literature. I feel like I'm just making this up, but I feel like there'd be intentional play for us where we would schedule it and be like, I'm gonna do this 'cause I enjoy it, versus kind of like being more spontaneous and allowing ourselves to kind of fall into play.
And how do we slow things down or how do we rev things up? And so there's all kinds of ways that we can adjust really sort of what's happening in their nervous systems, and then other times where it's just for fun.
So if a kid is jumping up and down- to join with them and to start jumping up and down too. One of the, this is so simple, but if you have a kid who loves playing baseball and they tap their bat three times and then put it up, you pretend to tap your bat three times and put it up. You're really just mirroring them, which lets them kind of feel like, oh, they get me and we're really in this together.
So even just mirroring those states allows that it's - we're building prefrontal when we do that as well. So there's all kinds of just fun things we can do in those everyday moments. And here's the other thing too, is that sometimes we think as parents, oh, I have to go sit down. Like play is just a way to pass the time.
Or my kid will wanna play forever. And what's, you know, the subtitle of the book is really about how little moments can create big connections. So even if we just play five or 10 minutes. That can be really powerful for our kids. Um, and play is a way to come back together after separations again, like after bedtimes, or school separations, things like that.
Pam King: How does play help with emotions?
Tina Bryson: Oh, it's such a wonderful thing and in fact, and, and a lot of adult therapists can bring kind of playfulness into the therapy session as well. When we, let's say something is, well, I'll go back to the example of going to the doctor's office. Maybe that's really frightening, and actually going to the doctor's office might send a child into really high states of fear and arousal if they get to be the doctor with the teddy bear.
Or they get to be the patient or I'm the patient or whatever it is. What that, or you think about even fairytales that we read or watch, even Disney movies that have like really sad things happen when we get to try on experiences, we get to try on different emotions or different kinds of ways of being in the context of safety.
So it gives them a huge sense of control while they try different things on. So in the book, Georgie tells a story about a kid who might play something out over and over and over until you need to be scarier. Go over there, you're gonna be the witch and you're gonna be really scary. And what they're doing is they know you're safe. They know you're not a witch. Right? And they get to kind of be in that experience where they're replaying it in the context of safety. So it's almost like titrating out emotions. I'll give it a clinical example too. I was working with a young woman. I'm changing a few details for privacy. Um, but I was working with a young woman who was probably, she was like in fourth grade, fifth grade, 10 or 11, something like that.
And she had extreme separation anxiety that we kind of came to uncover and peel back the layers that she had a sensory processing disorder that hadn't yet been discovered before. And so when it was time to say goodbye to her mom to go to school, or her mom would go to a meeting, even though her dad was really safe and she had siblings that were really safe, like she was always in safe environments, she would get so dysregulated when her mom would leave.
And it was because her mom was her best strategy to stay regulated. Given sensory bombardment that was flooding her nervous system. So that's kind of the backstory. So anyway, mom is getting ready to go to a meeting. And we knew this was coming. And so what I wanted to do was widen her window of tolerance for what it would feel like in that moment.
So instead of having the automatic response of mom reaches for the door and leaves, and then her nervous system goes into extreme states of anxiety and fear. She would actually throw up, like she would get really ill, that would happen. I wanted to decouple that association - mom leaving, big extreme emotion.
I wanted to decouple it and create new plasticity around mom leaving and I can handle that. So one of the best ways I knew to do that was through play and playfulness. So I planned with her. I was like, listen, she loved, like most kids do, practical jokes. So I had her conspire with her siblings to do a whole pranking night on dad when mom was leaving.
So they put his underwear in the freezer, they put a fake bug in his dinner. They had a laundry basket full of socks for a big assault on dad from the socks. And so all of her anticipation of knowing mom was leaving on Tuesday night to go to a meeting, she had some anxiety, but it was much more anticipation around this play-based kind of event.
So, we talked it through. She planned it with her siblings. And so what happened was when that was the cue, when mom reached for the door, that was the prompt to start throwing the socks at dad. And so there was a totally different anticipatory arc of her nervous system because it was play-based.
And like I said, play expands our window of tolerance, allowing us to be in, in uncomfortable emotions and still stay in our window of tolerance and to practice those. So this, it went off beautifully. She had a great time that night, and then really her mom was able to say, you did it. Like you were able to stay calm inside your body When I left, that was amazing. And then I obviously amplified that. And so this was what they practiced before school. When it was time for her mom, her and her mom to go, they would actually get to school 20 minutes early and they would play and do silly things or play board games or play in the car, they would do different things so that she then realized that play was a tool she could use.
But the purpose of it was to experience an emotion in a more titrated, tolerable dose. And play allowed her to do that. And they just get to try on all different kinds of emotions in that same capacity. So they start getting those reps around emotions and how to respond to them.
Pam King: So powerful. So powerful.
How the play that you described there was connected. There was people engaged, there was complex emotions of fear, anxiety, but also positivity and anticipation of humor and fun, and the power of positive emotions that they do widen that window. They do broaden our brain. They enable us to do more, but they also allow us to hold anxiety at the same time too.
Really powerful.
Tina Bryson: They do, they do. Something we can even add some narration to, is to say, notice you were, you didn't like that mom was leaving and you were uncomfortable and you could have fun anyway. To hold multiple emotions that more than one thing was true. And that gives us tremendous capacity to be resilient and have more mental and cognitive, uh, flexibility as well as emotional flexibility.
Pam King: Well, I'd love to ask you, this is more personal. How did you love to play as a kid? What brought you joy?
Tina Bryson: I also like you, I loved coloring and, and doing those kinds of things, which is funny 'cause I actually have zero skill at fine, any kind of fine art, like painting, like even though I have some talent in my lineage.
I'm terrible at fine art kinds of things, but I did love to do that. I loved riding my bike and roller skating. Those were my absolute favorites. I roller skated. It's been a while since I've tried, but I had pretty mad skills as a roller skater.
Pam King: I just imagine, is there a video somewhere of that? Oh my gosh.
Tina Bryson: I should see. Yeah, we, my friends and I would, and my sister, we would put on shows, whatever. So I loved, I grew up in Orange County, California, so the weather is great year round. And so I loved being outside, riding my bike, roller skating. Um, those were some of my, and I guess I'll say too, I, this is gonna be a little bit of an insight into how I'm a total, organized type A person, like my favorite gift my husband has ever given me is my label maker. So that just gives you a window. So I did a lot of pretend play and my friends still make fun of me for this. Like I loved being a librarian and I made the little, I cut out papers to go inside all my, like “Nancy Drew” books and all my other, uh, “Little House on the Prairie” books, and I made like little library cards and I got a stamp and I got to play.
I played librarian and I played fabric store where I would measure out the fabric, like anything having to do with being in charge and having a system. That was one of my favorite ways to play. So, honestly, I almost said this earlier and I was like, that's, I don't know if that's a good example of play for me.
One of the things that gives me great delight is organizing. I know that doesn't sound like fun, but to me, I get a lot of dopamine. I like it a lot.
Pam King: That's right. Well, you're checking things off. You're getting things done. You're creating a safe environment. In a predictable environment. So, and I am chuckling inside all the acronyms.
They're like, it's all putting everything together. It's organizing, it's the books. Yes, it's, you're putting it all together. I love - it's systematic.
Tina Bryson: And at the end of each of our books, um, with the exception of my book, The Bottom Line for Baby, that's done alphabetically. All my other books with Dan and now with Georgie have a refrigerator sheet at the end that is a summary of all of the strategies.
So you can literally rip it out or photocopy it and put it up. So, you get the reps for the neuroplasticity to get wired. But yeah, I really like having it all concise. And it's, and each, all of my books are pretty much broken down by strat. I definitely like a system.
Pam King: Awesome. Well thank you so much for sharing.
I love, well, something I study is joy and to see the actual joy and delight you get out of organizing, which maybe is not everyone's bliss, but I think when we are operating and functioning in places that give us joy, we bring so much dynamism and power and that's when we're most fully alive. And that's when we can help others the most, and, and you've been such a good steward of your passion for organizing, organizing such important information and strategies for the rest of us. Um.
Tina, thank you so much. I'm feeling hopeful. I'm feeling excited about a set of strategies and insights into how I can be more present for not just my family, but also those around me. So thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom. Really grateful. Thank you.
Tina Bryson: Thank so much for having me.
Jill Westbrook: Listeners, I hope you enjoyed this bonus material from our interview with Tina Bryson. The key takeaways that I carry with me from Pam's conversation with Tina are as follows.
Play is important throughout our life spans because the positive emotions it elicits expand what Tina calls our window of tolerance. We get better at avoiding the rigidity and chaos that can plague our relationships.
The more stressful our lives are, the more we need to play. Having playfulness in life is as important as actually playing. So, adding play to your life doesn't mean that you have to schedule any particular time for play. Laughing, sharing funny videos, lightening things up a bit are all part of play.
Playing with children is vital for their development and for those of us with young people in our lives, finding time to do something fun with them helps us all thrive.
Tina's new book “The Way of Play” offers practical advice and teaches strategies so that all of us can get more comfortable playing.
Pam King: With & For is a production of The Thrive Center at Fuller Theological Seminary. For more information, visit our website, thethrivecenter. org, where you'll find all sorts of resources to support your pursuit of wholeness and a life of thriving on purpose. I am so grateful to the staff and fellows of the Thrive Center and our With & For podcast team.
Jill Westbrook is our Senior Director and Producer. Lauren Kim is our Operations Manager. Wren Juergensen is our Social Media Graphic Designer. Evan Rosa is our Consulting Producer. And special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology and Marriage and Family Therapy. I'm your host, Dr. Pam King.
Thank you for listening.